Curse

yeah_hi · Feb 14, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Hi,

I'm new to MMORPGs, new to GW (first char - eek), new to partying, and new to the ways of the mesmer.

So um, yeah... Apologies in advance for my total noobness

I've so far enjoyed levelling my mesmer to 18, mostly with henchies, sometimes with some guild help. I'm now at Sanctum Cay and have been struggling badly since ToA/Maguuma, really.

My 'build' is complete trial & error, so far I've been concentrating on domination, and haven't really moved on at all from Backfire, Empathy, Conjure Phantasm & Shatter Hex (with maybe some interrupts - Power Leak & Spike). I'm a Necro secondary, and don't use any necro skills.

If anyone can offer build advice - how to move my crappy, mainly dmg dealing PvE build on to something more effective (and useful/wanted in a party!), it would be much appreciated!

I've seen some suggested builds on here, but they all seem geared towards PvP, farming, or include elite skills, none of which I have yet.

Thanks for reading!

JoeKnowMo · Feb 14, 2006, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Gearing your build towards damage in PvE, at least in the stages you are at, is not a bad idea. You'll rarely run into monsters that heal and a few may have a monk/healer that you want to a.s.a.p.

So domination isn't a bad line to focus on, I'd maybe include Illusion as well, assuming you have the attribute points to make it effective. This is real basic, but you might like it.

Empathy
Backfire
Conjure Phantasm
Wastrel's Worry
Shatter Hex (use on ally who is surrounded by monsters, otherwise save it)
Cry of Frustration (try to use on a monster that is in a pack of other monsters)
Shatter Delusions
Rez Sig

Notice that this build has no healing, but Alesia should help you out there.

You could switch out illusion for inspiration to keep your energy up. See below.

Other options to try: Clumsiness, Phantom Pain, Power Spike, Chaos storm (monsters will run from it, but it might disrupt them enough), Energy burn.

Experiment with this in a lower level region and see what you like. Cry of frustration, shatter hex, and chaos storm are the only ones that can damage multiple enemies at once. If you can use these effectively, your mesmer will do much better even with henchies.

I have a Me/N who's pretty much finshed the game. However, I use elites now and oftentimes will go with Energy surge (Mes domination) or Spiteful spirit (Necro curses) often with Arcane echo.

If you want to go with Necro skills, you could try Domination and Curses. You could mix in Soul Barbs, Enfeeble/Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear, Mark of Pain. Using Enfeeble on melee monsters attacking Alesia will pretty much save her life.

Or you could try Domination and Death Magic. Mix in a few of the following Animate Bone Horror, Putrid Explosion, Rotting Flesh, Necrotic traversal, Well of sufferring, etc.

Lastly, since it sounds like you haven't tried Inspiration magic much, you could try using quick recharge spells that do damage and use inspiration spells to keep your energy up. For example, Illusion and Inspiration magic Mes:

Mantra of Persistence
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
Phantom Pain
Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
Energy Tap/Ether feast
Rez Sig

Hit every foe with Conjure Phantasm while keeping your energy up with the inspiration magic spells. Then throw in clumsiness for some spike damage now and then. You could trade Illusion out for Domination and use Inspiration to keep your energy up for Backfire, Empathy, Wastrel's Worry, Shatter Hex, Energy Burn, Power Spike, Cry of Frustration, etc.

I think you're at the point where you really need to experiment. Don't forget to try necro spells too. Looks like you've only focused on your Mes skills. Mesmers are tough to play in PvE so don't be disheartened by the lack of demand for them in pick up groups.

Good luck.

JoeKnowMo · Feb 14, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Gearing your build towards damage in PvE, at least in the stages you are at, is not a bad idea. You'll rarely run into monsters that heal and a few may have a monk/healer that you want to kill a.s.a.p.

So domination isn't a bad line to focus on, I'd maybe include Illusion as well, assuming you have the attribute points to make it effective. This is real basic, but you might like it.

Empathy
Backfire
Conjure Phantasm
Wastrel's Worry
Shatter Hex (use on ally who is surrounded by monsters, otherwise save it)
Cry of Frustration (try to use on a monster that is in a pack of other monsters)
Shatter Delusions
Rez Sig

Notice that this build has no healing, but Alesia should help you out there.

You could switch out illusion for inspiration to keep your energy up. See below.

Other options to try: Clumsiness, Phantom Pain, Power Spike, Chaos storm (monsters will run from it, but it might disrupt them enough), Energy burn.

Experiment with this in a lower level region and see what you like. Cry of frustration, shatter hex, and chaos storm are the only ones that can damage multiple enemies at once. If you can use these effectively, your mesmer will do much better even with henchies.

I have a Me/N who's pretty much finshed the game. However, I use elites now and oftentimes will go with Energy surge (Mes domination) or Spiteful spirit (Necro curses) often with Arcane echo.

If you want to go with Necro skills, you could try Domination and Curses. You could mix in Soul Barbs, Enfeeble/Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear, Mark of Pain. Using Enfeeble on melee monsters attacking Alesia will pretty much save her life.

Or you could try Domination and Death Magic. Mix in a few of the following Animate Bone Horror, Putrid Explosion, Rotting Flesh, Necrotic traversal, Well of sufferring, etc.

Lastly, since it sounds like you haven't tried Inspiration magic much, you could try using quick recharge spells that do damage and use inspiration spells to keep your energy up. For example, Illusion and Inspiration magic Mes:

Mantra of Persistence
Conjure Phantasm
Clumsiness
Phantom Pain
Drain Enchantment
Power Drain
Energy Tap/Ether feast
Rez Sig

Hit every foe with Conjure Phantasm while keeping your energy up with the inspiration magic spells. Then throw in clumsiness for some spike damage now and then. You could trade Illusion out for Domination and use Inspiration to keep your energy up for Backfire, Empathy, Wastrel's Worry, Shatter Hex, Energy Burn, Power Spike, Cry of Frustration, etc.

I think you're at the point where you really need to experiment. Don't forget to try necro spells too. Looks like you've only focused on your Mes skills. Mesmers are tough to play in PvE so don't be disheartened by the lack of demand for them in pick up groups.

Good luck.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2006, 11:47 AM // 11:47

I would not bring shatter delusions or wastrel's in PvE...

Domination/curses build

Empathy (antimelee)
Backfire (anticast)
Cry of Frustration (THE interrupt to have)
Shadow of Fear (because melees are bad. Don't put it on the same things empathy is on)
Parasitic bond (a more efficient self-heal than feast)
Shatter hex (damage, hex removal)
Energy Tap
Res signet

Something that could work... you should have most of these skills by that area. Not too much energy management, but the spells here don't need to be recast quickly.

In PvE it will seem like you do nothing, unless you are very confident in how your skills work. Thus it's better to develop a build through trial and error, much the way you are already. What builds replied here are simply guidelines and tips.

holden · Feb 14, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

[QUOTE=Avarre]I would not bring shatter delusions or wastrel's in PvE...

why? phantom pain/shatter delusions is a killer.

wastrels is lame. that's for sure.

axe · Feb 14, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Well I too am making a Me/Nec and I am going with a fast casting Minion Master I dont know if this is a viable build or not, but I know mesmers can get energy easily (which is good with 0 soul reaping) but I am too early in the building stages to know if this is a good way to go.

Right now I have no way to keep my minions alive, but it is very fun to pop them up quickly, and it seems to be working well so far. I dont play this character much and dont have the skills I want yet, but you are prob. further along in the game than me so you could have more to choose from.

Also when I am playing my other characters I really like it when there is a mesmer with interrupts in the group for those dagone monk bosses that are impossible to kill sometimes. Enchant removal is also helpful for the Sorrows furnace area where they like to use Mark of Prot.

Sorry I dont have a build laid out, these are just some ideas I have for what I want to do with my Me/N

Hope it helps.

Avarre · Feb 14, 2006, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

why? phantom pain/shatter delusions is a killer.

wastrels is lame. that's for sure.

In PvE, monsters don't run away, and don't require a ranged deepwound spike... for 15 energy and 2 stat lines, it isn't that effective, especially versus a large amount of targets. Versus a single target, there is a skill called 'gash' that most sword warriors have (paladins ftw!)

Wastrels is a good skill, but not in PvE. Never in PvE

unclepunchy · Feb 15, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

back around there my Mes/nec was having trouble as well...

try rotting flesh+epidemic

brutal cost but....man o man does disease spread....hit that one first, follow up w/ energy tap...

now i roll with enfeeble/phantom pain+virulence

yeah shatter delusions...isnt that one for stacking hexes on a target then hitting shatter delusions?... i say to slow fer the DoT phantom pain is great, will also work with epidemic if you hit it right (watch the heath bar of that monster fer the brown triangles)

good luck, and dont listen to anyone who says mesmers suck! because they are just jealous of the best dance in the game

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Epidemic is too close ranged for efficient useage, and using it with rotting flesh is redundant (both have adjacent spread range).

Delusions is basically a spike damage spell, when combined with PP it gives a good 170~ damage to players. However, a spike is less needed in PvE and far less efficient than that 15 energy to other causes. Your purpose is not to be dealing high damage to a single target, but to cause the most strife and damage possible over the entire enemy groups.

d3kst3r · Feb 15, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

A beginner playing the 2 most difficult builds in the game instead of warmo :P
If you wanna have the most fun in PvE I'd recommend Illusionary Weaponry with Distortion. However lots of HP degen hexes are probably the sensible option.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

No. Hp degen is a very poor option in PvE. 20d/s max on a target will not help much.

The only degen you should run is the elite hexes (which have other effects) or rotting flesh (disease spreads well, more efficient, lasts longer).

IW is also a poor option for PvE... monsters hit HARD when you're a mesmer.

Domination triggered-damage like Empathy and Backfire are the best sorts of skills for PvE, as monsters can't avoid those. Shatter hex is also quite nice... a dom/illu mix with illusion to slow casters/warriors (SV, conundrum, etc) supported by domination triggerdamage is the most versataile and effective combo I've played in PvE.

calamitykell · Feb 15, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

It seems everything except Empathy and Backfire are poor options in PvE, Avarre. Keep in mind that's only your opinion, not fact.

Wastrel's Worry at a fairly respectable level of Domination is great to kill bosses fast. I agree with Avarre in that degen in PvE is not the same as degen in PvP, and is less effective, so I wouldn't bring Phantom Pain or Conjure Phantasm.

Empathy
Backfire
Power Spike
Power Leak
Power Drain (if you can put some in insp)
Physical Resistance/Distortion*
Wastrel's Worry (3 second max duration. Hex conditions are halved on bosses, so it lasts 1.5 seconds instead of 3. Nice damage flow to kill bosses.)
Rez

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

It seems everything except Empathy and Backfire are poor options in PvE, Avarre. Keep in mind that's only your opinion, not fact.

Wastrel's Worry at a fairly respectable level of Domination is great to kill bosses fast. I agree with Avarre in that degen in PvE is not the same as degen in PvP, and is less effective, so I wouldn't bring Phantom Pain or Conjure Phantasm.

Empathy
Backfire
Power Spike
Power Leak
Power Drain (if you can put some in insp)
Physical Resistance/Distortion*
Wastrel's Worry (3 second max duration. Hex conditions are halved on bosses, so it lasts 1.5 seconds instead of 3. Nice damage flow to kill bosses.)
Rez

Well after over 3mill xp playing pure mesmer pve, my opinion is pretty factual in basis

Empathy and Backfire are staple skills, and superb in all areas of pve Tyria.

Now, onto the build.

Use distortion over Physical resist. For a full debate over it, look for the thread 'A skill over looked' near the top in the mes forum. In summary, you don't want to be hit at all, and distort is better at avoiding hits and effects like conditions, interrupts, etc.

Drop wastrel's. It's never a good skill in PvE, hands down, no questions asked. The only decent benefit is versus bosses, and since those are generally the final target of a group, you don't need a sharp damage flow to bring him down, especially at the point of the game the OP is at. (No, not even for Josso the annoying monk boss of doom).

Rather many interrupts... and all for spells. Get Cry of Frustration in there, replacing power leak (energy drain in pve is only meh). Power Drain is good enough to maintain energy, because hexes are fire-and-forget.

SnipiousMax · Feb 15, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

No. Hp degen is a very poor option in PvE. 20d/s max on a target will not help much.

The only degen you should run is the elite hexes (which have other effects) or rotting flesh (disease spreads well, more efficient, lasts longer).

IW is also a poor option for PvE... monsters hit HARD when you're a mesmer.

Domination triggered-damage like Empathy and Backfire are the best sorts of skills for PvE, as monsters can't avoid those. Shatter hex is also quite nice... a dom/illu mix with illusion to slow casters/warriors (SV, conundrum, etc) supported by domination triggerdamage is the most versataile and effective combo I've played in PvE.

Yup, other character's will be able to out damage you if you try to go pure damage/degen. Its much better to focus on hex and forget spells like empathy and backfire. And btw Congrats on Ministry of Knowledge Avarre!

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

I'm just spammy

I have been asked to play degenner before in PvE Tombs *shock*

So here's what I ran...

Rotting flesh (-4 degen, spreads well)
Well of Suffering ( another -4 degen, works very well with a good tank)
Phantom pain (for the purpose of sniping terrorwebs that are behind walls, while the group waits. Also annoys wurms.)
Crippling Anguish (grasps of insanity are funny when they're slow)
Faintheartedness (I dissaprove of things hitting me in melee)
Power drain (toss meteors at me, will you?)
Enfeebling blood (grasps that hit for 10 are funny too)
Res signet (pheonix down 1x)

or at least, something along those lines. Wasn't really that powerful, but if people love degen... I quite liked those skills. For lower level, obviously drop Crippling for something else...

yeah_hi · Feb 15, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Wow, thanks so much for the replies so far, it's really given me food for thought (as well as the horrible realisation that I'm not familiar with even a quarter of a Mesmer's skill set - eeek), and I'm actually looking forward to trying out new skills and builds. Yay for Mesmers!

I found some opinion pieces on another site (are we allowed to post links to other forums?) that were quite interesting:

Character evolutions - Mesmer

An article on Mesmers

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

The first link has some excellent builds, especially for the Ring of Fire. The energy denial with Power block build is ingenious. However, as some of you might know, I'm fanatically opposed to Physical resist, and I would advise anyone to switch that to distortion (if running illu) or simply drop it in favor of another skill. If you seriously cannot cough up 4 illu for -2 distortion, then you can use phy res ONLY if using henchmen (because you have to be in front). However it's still not a great skill... Mursaat Eles hurt. Don't talk to me about Spark of the Titan either. Overall a good piece, very detailed, but don't read too much into it.

The second link was something I read back when I was in post-sear ascalon on my mesmer. Required basic reading for all mesmers.

Yeah, I'd advise you get familiar with not only the Mesmer skill line, but also the 3 other caster skill lines (which are what 95% of mesmers utilize in PvE for secondaries). This will give you a huge advantage towards developing builds, as you can just think up 8 skills and what they do immediately.

calamitykell · Feb 15, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Get Cry of Frustration in there, replacing power leak (energy drain in pve is only meh).

When I first started, I actually used to carry CoF with the three Power ***'s, but I found that 4 interrupts was usually wasting a skillslot (in my opinion), and opted for Leak since it was 5 energy cheaper. You're right though in that not taking CoF means non-spell skills used by the enemy are almost guaranteed (unless you can kill them before they finish casting.)

I still don't get the bit about Wastrel's not being good in PvE ever. Granted, I don't have 3 million xp, but I don't think I play as long in my sessions as you might. It lasts at max 3 seconds, and the only way they avoid 60+ damage is to use a skill. It recharges in 1 second, and takes 5 energy. Remembering that PvE is all AI, the AI doesn't recognize WW and use a skill to avoid the damage, much like Stone Summit Carvers don't stop attacking because they have Empathy on them. With Necro and Ele enemy long cast times, and Ranger enemies not exactly spamming skills, WW is nice spammable damage, and if you see them using a spell/skill that would cancel it, interrupt it, and they still take the WW hit. (160+ damage using Power Spike to negate a spell-use, then WW triggering.) I agree that it's drawback can negate it's use on certain enemies, but it's not a completely useless skill (to me.) We both agree that degen in PvE is not the best way to go, what would be your form of damage? Just Empathy and Backfire? :s (Not arguing, I'm curious and asking your opinion [hopefully with some example of your reasoning so I can be a better Mesmer

])

And I still maintain that PR is good in PvE, though I concede to you it really only becomes warranted when you run with henchies. But since I henched about the whole game on my Mes, I've come to rely on it to help lessen the damage before Alesia woke up and stopped tanking long enough to heal.

Avarre · Feb 15, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Ok I'll go a litttle more in-depth

Wastrel's worry is 64 damage, lets say, for 5 energy. We are now looking at 13 damage per energy, yes?

However, you need to remember that only about 1/3 to 1/2 of these will actually trigger, because most mobs do use quite a few skills. The only way it can work well is if you shutdown a target, and focusing your arsenal on a single target is inefficient.

So now we are at, say, 6 damage per energy, on average. While certainly you'll achieve closer to the full 13 d/e on some enemies, you'll get even less on some. And that energy cost is going to add up, fast. Imho, thats a slot that could be used for something more efficient.

My primary damage source on my PvE mes is empathy. There is no downside of this skill. It costs 10 energy, lasts 20 seconds with 30 damage per hit at level 15. Assuming an enemy never stops attacking, you're looking at nearly five to six hundred damage, or 50-60 damage / energy, nearly ten times as efficient as wastrels. Granted im taking best case vs worst case, but even with reversed roles wastrel's doesn't compare, because empathy is fire-and-forget.

Combined with distortion, empathy means you can solo just about any physical mob, even in high-end areas. I have killed the groups of 2x impalers with distortion and empathy in FoW, because I can hex both and strafe with distort. Combined with my second favorite mesmer elite, and the mesmer king of triggered damage, Ineptitude, you can deal minor damage and blind a target. These combined mean you can shut down 1 melee enemy, and demolish a second. And empathy has a nice little 10s recharge, meaning you can spin around and empathy what you put ineptitude on. That's two melee mobs that are going to die.

On top of that, empathy triggers extra on skills like barrage. You can't hate a skill that deals up to 186 damage to a target at once (rare, but in FoW its not uncommon if the group is balled up).

Empathy also works well on casters... especially casters that don't self-heal. Most of my examples are from FoW (my area of specialization) and empathy rips the heart out of shadow memers as well as all the melee opponents.

Now, backfire. Backfire is not only for the damage, it also completely negates healing. A shadow monk's heal area will not heal anything on himself with backfire on, nor will his orison. That's essentially lockdown for 10 seconds, and bonus 140 damage if it tries to cast on something else. Backfire also devastates spamming mobs like Doubter's dryders, Mindblade spectres, etc... it's not as scintillating as empathy, but it gets my vote.

With those two skills, you have enough damage to rip apart most enemies. Other skills I like :

Shatter Hex: 15 energy for AoE 120 damage at 15 dom. Anet reduced damage from 140 to 120 in an old update, but decreased the recharge time to near-spammable. The best part? The recharge time is near-exactly how long you need to regen the high 15 energy cost. Hex removal + high damage to area? Sign me up.

Clumsiness : Interrupts enemy attack and deals damage. Decently fast recharge. Go figure.

Ineptitude : The king of PvE illusion spells. 10s blindness on a target, a blocked attack, and damage. When a melee mob rushes you, THIS makes the problem gone.

Moving on!

Why do I like distortion?

Because in PuGs especially, warriors tend to lose the aggro. With distortion + Ineptitude + Empathy, you can kill just about any melee mob in FoW, and almost all anywhere else. I've brought down a Bladed aatxe with just those 3 skills. Luck, but the principle stands from that - empathy is potential collosal damage. It needs someone to be hit for it to trigger. If aggro is broken, that person should be you. Preferable using distortion to avoid conditions like deep wound.

calamitykell · Feb 15, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I definitely see your points, and I certainly don't argue the strengths of Empathy, Backfire, Clumsiness, and Ineptitude, and you're correct in that Ineptitude is probably the best Illusion spell for PvE (which gets overlooked, IMO, by people who want to solo using IW). Shatter Hex, I'll be honest, I didn't think of, lol

Though, to my credit, I never said any of those are bad, and I did have Empathy and Backfire in the build I suggested.

The main reason I didn't really mention Clumsiness or Ineptitude is that when I do missions and quests in PvE, I tend to focus on domination, as I run with henchie-only groups 95% of the time. Spreading my points into FC, Domination, Inspiration (to boost Power Drain) and Illusion just never seemed a good idea. Though when I solo, I do tend to switch Dom out for Illusion, but I should start ditching Insp and running a Dom/Ill combo instead. I'll consider that a lesson learned from you

When I run in PuGs, which is as common as meteors crashing through my roof, I admit I don't run with Phys Resist. I was never trying to suggest it's better than Distortion, just that it had it's place. I don't have any FoW examples, as I've never been, but places I do solo, Phys Resist has worked well enough. My thinking is, I'm going to get hit anyway. I have to cast too much stuff to really maintain a comfortable energy level where I'd feel confident in spending the energy for Distortion, so I resolve to minimalize what damage I do take as much as possible. If I ever get the balls to go down into FoW by myself, I'll remember to ditch my Inspiration magic.